Remembrance Sunday 11th November

[Katy]

'Lest we Forget'

No matter what colour, creed or country, many gave their life for Liberty and Freedom, Lest we Forget .

[Ned Kelly]

I agree with yer sentiments Katy but poppies ain't a very popular flower in Ireland!

[fullastern]

I too agree with the sentiments Katy but it's worth explaining a few things to do with the poppy - and not just in Ireland.

My grand-uncle spent three and a half years as a prisoner in a German P.O.W. camp at Limburg an der Lahn. He had earlier suffered the effects of gas poisoning on the front. He continued to be in ill-health until he died in 1958 aged around 55.

Like many thousands of Irishmen and millions of people around the world - mostly Europe - people were led, mainly by poverty to take part in an imperialist war. In Ireland the fact that most Belgians were Roman Catholics was used as a recruiting ploy by the British Army whose advertisements, along with the newspapers called for Irishmen to fight to save "Little Catholic Belgium". Of course little Belgium continued to maintain its own colonies even after the war and that country's colonial past is every bit as bloody as that of the British Empire and people still die in places such as Congo over the blood diamonds and gold.

Earl Haig was a leading British general but who is now well discredited. He led the first offensive on the Somme which was a disaster for the British Army (including 3,500 Irishmen who died in one day). His incompetence and his willingness to sacrifice tens of thousands of men for just a few hundred yards of territorty is remembered to this day. Even at the time there were some in the British government who wanted to get rid of Haig but none was willing to take him on.

After the Great War Earl Haig set up a foundation to look after dependents of those killed and maimed in the war. They built houses all over the British Empire, including some in Cork (Haig Gardens off the Boreenmanna Road in the city being an example - there are some up near Cobh Ramblers pitch too) these houses were for the dependents. Haig was also involved in setting up the Royal British Legion which instituted the Poppy Appeal and the annual sales of poppies for the dependents fund for British soldiers injured in war and the families of those killed. Haig's fund helped many families in Cork (and still does) but I personally object to the way the poppy is used to glorify war - there is such a thing as the White Poppy introduced by the Peace Pledge Union to honour all victims of war -from all sides, military and civilians, Germans, British, everyone.

In Ireland and especially Northern Ireland it is seen by some as a divisive symbol because of its association with the British Army but I think there is a lack of understanding on both sides as shown in last weekend's controversial march in Belfast of British military personnel returned from Afghanistan. I personally believe that people should have a right to honour their dead - it is a basic human right - and while I have a problem with the poppy because it glorifies the war more than the dead - I don't object to people wearing it - and have worn it myself once or twice (I also wear an Easter Lily to remember those who died in the Irish struggle for independence).

The "Great War" was not about the plight of small countries - it was an imperialist war between the monarchies of Europe and the growing might of the capitalist class - big industrialists, bankers, etc all fighting for a slice of the pie. The filling in that pie was the working class who were the ones who did nearly all of the fighting and dying - the empires (especially Britain) called upon their subject nations from Ireland to Australia to provide cannon fodder - and their own working class.

Some of the statistics of World War I :-

Total Killed: 18,591,701 (from various sources - some say it was 25 million)
Total Military Killed: 9,720,453
Total Civilians Killed: 8,871,248
Total Military Wounded: 21,228,813
Total Civilians Wounded - Unknown

British Killed: 994,000 (Irish were included in this - probably 50,000+)
Germans Killed: 2,462,000
Ottoman Empire (Turkey etc): 5,000,000
USA: 117,500
Austria-Hungary: 1,567,000
France: 1,697,000
Italy: 1,240,000
Belgium: 105,000
Romania: 680,000
Serbia: 725,000

Just to name some of the countries with the biggest death tolls.

[Katy]

[quote=fullastern;7457]I too agree with the sentiments Katy but it's worth explaining a few things to do with the poppy - and not just in Ireland.

Thanks for your post Fulla, I understand history better than you think.

My grand-uncle spent three and a half years as a prisoner in a German P.O.W. camp at Limburg an der Lahn. He had earlier suffered the effects of gas poisoning on the front. He continued to be in ill-health until he died in 1958 aged around 55.

My father spent three years in a German POW camp, health problems relating from the conditions, never left him. I also lost a uncle and a grandfather also suffered the effects of gas poisoning ( both by the way Irish Born)

Haig's fund helped many families in Cork (and still does) but I personally object to the way the poppy is used to glorify war -

I and many others wear the poppy, not to 'glorify war' as you say, but to remember and honour those men and women of all colours,creeds who died so we could live.

I personally believe that people should have a right to honour their dead - it is a basic human right - and while I have a problem with the poppy because it glorifies the war more than the dead - I don't object to people wearing it - and have worn it myself once or twice

Understanding each others views, is important, and sometimes just to listen and not talk. I respect your views and comments Fulla. All I ask is the same in return.

[fullastern]

Of course Katy - people should be entitled that respect - especially if they lost relatives in the war.

[Kieran]

I only learned in the last year that I had too Great gran-unclers lost in that war to the Munster Fusilers - a well kept family secret. That it was kept a secret should explain that there was something wrong with that in Ireland Katy. In our family's case, those brothers went from heroes to part of a villian army when their distant cousin (the Lord mayor of Cork MacSwiney died on hungerstrike in Brixton prison) all in the space of 4 years.
Katy is dead right about everyone being given the right to commemorate their war dead -But here is the crux of it. Each November and before, we cannot tune into the BBC TV without being confronted with newsreaders and presenters sporting the popies on their lapels.
I watches the BBC news atleast once a night just to get the Northern news. You might say dont watch it if I dont want to look at popies but why should I. Consider this, Presenters on the BBC world service are forbidden from wearing the popy because it might cause offence to different peoples around the world, yet they are well aware it does just that to half the population in the north of our country and many more south of the border.
Why dont the BBC address this by simply having their presenters to wear the popy in November, and then wear the Lily at Easter time. Both communities memories are commemorated/ represented then and treated equally, otherwise, the only answer is to not wear anaything?

[Ned Kelly]

Fair enough Katy, we can and do honour the dead who died in wars organised by the upper classes and politicians but there is no need for symbols that alienate and denigrate large sectors of the population!

[Kieran]

I can see where and how people can get caught up in something when the mass of the population are going along with it and had done so since childhood and their folks before them.
As an Irish republican, I'd hate to see 3/4 of the Irish population wearing Easter Lilies each year, if I thought they were doing so blindly and didnt really know what they represented!
The funny thing about WW1 is that even some of the historians who admit and tell us it was a pointless imperialist war and a massive waste of humanity, still wear the poppy each year. Doesnt make sense to me as it glorifies it and other young men and women watching this are likely to take the wrong message, thus repeat over again.

[Ned Kelly]

Will we ever learn that no piece of dirt is worth dying for?
But I say that and it makes me a liar because I would be the first one of many that would take up arms to defend my country. It just has to be inbred in us is the only answer I can offer!

[Kieran]

You were probably right the first time Ned about the piece of dirt. My country is its people, and the sod we live on is only borrowed or mortgaged while we live on it, though we should be minding it in trust for those coming after us. I suppose the Isrealis more than anyone else use land to justify war and attacking others. All imperialists do!

[Katy]

Peace.....Freedom....Honour....Heritage .....passing it all on to our next generation, that with a Legacy of our Roots. Katy

[Ned Kelly]

In a perfect world John Lennons *Imagine* comes to mind!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0Eyw3l3XM

[Ned Kelly]

Am I right in saying K, that you have a problem with Israel?

[Kieran]

Yes Ned, like closer to home -the planters trive on playing the victim -the underdog and the siege mentality. They hadnt learned much from their own persecution by others in another time and place! But like closer to home again -that attitude will only change when their big-brother who signs the blank secuity cheques of superiority- decides to call it a day -Is Obama up for the challenge?

[fullastern]

ah Planters! I remember in Belfast a few years ago I saw a packet of Planter's peanuts only they had a different name on the packet. Can't remember what the name was but they were made by the same company. Apparently the name "planters" doesn't go down well with one section of the community up there. A certain mobile phone company up there is still wondering why its slogan "The future is Orange" was so unpopular in some parts of the city!

[Kieran]

Thats the first thing that comes into my mind every time I see that orange advert on TV -they might as well say the future is UDA -ha

I was asked to give the address at the Manchester Martyrs commemoration tomorrow at Ladys Bridge. Thats where I'll be doing my remembering this November.

It looks like the examiner is refusing to publish my letter on the subject of the WW1 and remembering - I reckon I must have made some good and unsettling points!

[fullastern]

Hardly a surprise Kieran - from a newspaper whose proprietor paid people to sign up for the Somme.

[Kieran]

Wasnt there a Capt Crosbie lost to the war also?

We are always hearing about the amount of Irishmen and Corkmen that died in that war, but rarely about the amount who survived and came back home. through my little research on the matter which was related to the subject of my recent book, most came back very bitter and broken. Some carried on the fight for the freedom of this small nation through the republican volunteers, while others didnt, but issued statement as ex-servicemen condeming Britain and its illegal war in Ireland. I think these mainly ignored facts puts the poppy issue in its real context, atleast in Ireland. What about those Irish who genuinely were loyal to Britain and her interestes and willingly fought and died? Well they should be commemorated in their own right by the british people and we as a sovereign independant state (not country) should not pretend that they died for anything else other than Britain. That was the nature of my letter -which has failed to be published.
I noted in the news this week, an Irishman from Mayo was killed by a landmine in Afganistan with the British army - history repeating itself!

[fullastern]

I'm not sure about a Captain Crosbie - I think he may be a different family. There was a Commander Crosbie - George Crosbie who was a Fine Gael senator in the 1930s. He was a son Thomas Crosbie who took over the then Cork Examiner after the death of its founder in the 19th century. He would be a great-grandfather of the present CEO of the Irish Examiner. I think he was a commander in the Free State naval service during the war but I assume he must have been in the British navy before that. During the First World War the Crosbies were very supportive of the drive to recruit Irishmen to fight and die in Britain's imperial war and the Examiner was not known to be friendly to Ireland during the struggle for independence.

It is regrettable when anyone dies in war and if I sound callous then so be it but what was a young Irishman (and hundreds of others apparently) doing fighting for the British Army (same goes for any other foreign army, USA etc) in Afghanistan? It was a shame, but he chose to be there - the native population have no choice in the matter.

[Katy]

It looks like the examiner is refusing to publish my letter on the subject of the WW1 and remembering - I reckon I must have made some good and unsettling points!


:confused:Aaahh!Kieran, it maybe that your views (re letter) be they good, bad or indifferent, may not be shared by the Examiners readers......lol....and what with you being a local Councillor, active member of the community also a respected, Writer/Author....now what could you say or do that would come over as being unsettling.......cheers Katy:);)

[fullastern]

Ah Katy, never heard of the yellow press?

[Kieran]

The truth Katy.

Got your point about the Crosbies Fulla, But the commander must have joined the navy (Irish) after the war as it didnt begin until 1946.
I totally agree with you sentiments about Irish men joining foreign wars. Adventure -We had a local lad here in Cobh who went to Iraq with some mercenaries after he had been refused entry to Irish army (he wrote a book about it) -a common enough story!

[Ned Kelly]

Freedom of speech? Methinks its not up the editor of the exam to censor letters, Readers can chose to read or not to read and if they agree or disagree they can reply or not reply!

[Kieran]

In the perfect world Ned -but not in a capitalist one!

[Katy]

Ahh!! Fulla, to answer your question.....Yes:)
But we live in a time when if 'Truth' is to be told as Kieran has hinted, then we must 'All' look to the future, so the same mistakes are not made over and over again.
Around the world we have folk, who are hell bent on getting revenge, at any cost.....they shout, they scream, they have no regard for anyone, but their own thoughts.........no one wins in that situation....
Some topics, some say are off limits.....So our next generation can move forward with the truth being told, we all have to listen more to others points of views.....

By the way I have around twenty plus years of working with media outlets.....so I do realise...it can be frustrating for some.....but 'Truth' will out live.....cheers Katy

[Katy]

Freedom of speech? Methinks its not up the editor of the exam to censor letters, Readers can chose to read or not to read and if they agree or disagree they can reply or not reply!

Well said Ned...if my memory is right Ireland has many, many news outlets, that if content is truth, not libel, is not directly hurting anyone, but just highlighting a certain point, then it should be printed. So that other readers/members of community can return a reply to the issue raised. cheers Katy

ps, re 2012, for many wishing to visit Ireland from far and wide, we have to cut our cloth and save like hell....:cool:

[Katy]

In the perfect world Ned -but not in a capitalist one!


Aaahh! Kieran is your glass half full....or half empty?;) cheers Katy

[Kieran]

Why do we need editors if people should be free to express their thoughts and views?
I guess we need them to ensure that others arent libeld and newspapers arent taken to the cleaners and shut down, but as we all know, its very rare that people write such iresponsible letters to the editor.
In such cases, I can see why letters are witheld, but when letters are witheld because they dont conform with the political views of a papers editorial stance, or its historical take on a given subject, then we are into a whole different area.
My take on this is that there is a big new move on in this state to make mainstream Ireland celebrate WW1 again without having a serious debate about why it all happened, and what was Irelands true role in it. If we are not going to be allowed to have that debate with all the facts out on the table, then it is only going to lead to more trouble down the road. Trouble that papers like the Examiner will have played no small part in!

[Ned Kelly]

But surely K, The newspaper can't be held responsible for the letters page? After all in a *free* society everyone is entitled to their opinion, If an opinion is published in a letters page of whatever publication presuming the letter has a name and address attached, that surely is expressing a personal opinion of the writer and not the newspaper?

[Kieran]

You are talking about the letters that are fortunate enough to be given space to be aired Ned.
I'm talking about the ones that are forbidden publication because they dont conform with the editors or MD's own political views.
Thats exactly what is happening here.
Ive been following the recent dabate on this subject in the letters of the Irish Examiner during this years poppy season and particularly about the Cork Lord Mayors decision to celebrate it. There has been a reasonably balanced debate around it for and against -probably slightly more for. But my letter was coming at it from a position never before articlulated, or at least I dont believe so.
So why was my letter witheld? I can only surmise from it been witheld that there were others that didnt agree with the Lord Mayor that were also witheld.

[Ned Kelly]

Yep fair nuff mo chara, The editors political persuasion should not have any influence on the *free press*but how free is it when whoever advertises is paying the bills?